WARNING: Spoilers for the end of the ARR MSQ follow. If you haven't done "Before the Dawn" yet, I highly advise not reading any further.
Am I the only person who can't wrap my head around what exactly happened at the Royal Dining Hall in Ul'dah (you know the cutscene I'm talking about)? Well, okay, I understand WHAT happened, but WHY.... I'm just scratching my head. The whole cutscene revolves around people suddenly acting stupid and powerless around people much weaker than them.
Let's start from the moment the PC is brought in with their hands tied behind their back, and Raubahn makes it clear that he does not believe Teledji's claims and then charges at Teledji and kills (?) him.
From that moment on, all of the Scions, Merlwyb and Kan-E-Senna should know full well what is going on. In the room, are...
Yda (Monk)
Papalymo (THM)
Y'shtola (CNJ)
Raubahn (GLA?)
And the PC. Also, there's Minfilia (does she have any battle capabilities? She's never shown doing any fighting, I'm going to assume she's a non-combatant. There's also Merlwyb (MCH?) and Kan-E-Senna who I'm going to assume is another Conjurer.
The opposition is that guy who cuts Raubahn's arm off, several brass blades and a few crystal braves. The two lalafell monatarists (Lolorito and Teledji) do not appear to be combatants, though Lolorito wears the same kind of mask that Yda does, dunno what's up with that.
Yda in particular has held off Livia Sas Junia (sp?) herself and was able to survive battle against a well-trained Imperial High Ranking Soldier, and all of the Scions have fought Imperial Soldiers before. The Brass Blades earlier in the MSQ were portrayed to be nothing in comparison, and just a few quests ago, the Crystal Braves had trouble fending off just a few Imperial Soldiers, ones who weren't even at full strength, unlike the ones the PC and the Scions fought earlier in the story.
So.... can someone tell me why... the moment Raubahn made it clear that he does not believe the accusations... why the Scions didn't immediately draw steel and fight? Even if it was after Raubahn's wounds, Papalymo could have easily took Lolorito out with a fireball, he was wide open for several seconds, and Ibern (is that the guy's name?) was already engaged with Raubahn and would not have been able to do much to stop a seasoned caster. Yda could have then started mopping up the blades and the braves while Y'shtola made sure nobody gets hurt, and meanwhile, I'm sure Minfilia could have freed the PC and then all crap would hit the fan, because, you know, Warrior of Light? He/She felled Primals. Not like some sellswords are gonna stand in his/her way.
I just feel that cutscene.... I feel like all the NPCs (and maybe even the PC) were acting like idiots. That could have gone MUCH better if they had actually acted in a logical manner.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2017 9:07pm by Lyrailis
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It's completely stupid, as the only one there who would pose a threat is Ilberd, and we kick his *** early in Heavensward anyway which makes it even more illogical. I guess the fact that the WoL and the Scions have most of the Ul'dah military turned on them stops them from going completely ape as they'd be overwhelmed eventually. Doesn't explain how the WoL was tied up and pushed around like a rag doll though.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1053318/
I'd have to re-watch the scene to remember exactly, but I do recall wondering why I let myself be captured like that. I've taken down the incarnations of the elemental forces of nature... but these guys are too much for me? There's no chance anyone in that room was a match for me. The only thing I can think of is that we didn't want to kill these guys for some reason... because literally nothing else could have possibly stopped us.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Callinon wrote:
I'd have to re-watch the scene to remember exactly, but I do recall wondering why I let myself be captured like that. I've taken down the incarnations of the elemental forces of nature... but these guys are too much for me? There's no chance anyone in that room was a match for me. The only thing I can think of is that we didn't want to kill these guys for some reason... because literally nothing else could have possibly stopped us.
It happens off-camera.
The way it was done suggests that the WoL surrenders willingly, hoping it's just a misunderstanding or something and that they'll actually get to plead their case.
That much I can understand; they are not yet aware of what's about to happen.
What I said in my OP, though.... once everybody in that room full well knows that a coup d'etat just happened.... there's no excuse to not draw steel and kill every blade and brave in the room. Yeah, they would have been overwhelmed eventually.... that's why you knock off Lolorito, Illbern, and then haul b*tt out of there. If the Scions had stayed together.... strength in numbers and all that... they could have killed the waves as they came, especially since they had a healer with them.
Especially even with a one-armed Raubahn who is shown being able to stand against Illbern with just one arm... could have even contributed to the fight. I mean, c'mon, they send 6-8 sellswords in generic gear after the entire group of Scions, the WoL, and Raubahn? Are you kidding me? Just kill the fools and keep running towards the exit.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2017 10:52pm by Lyrailis
It's not super clear at that point just what kind of power level the scions are sitting at. We know Thancred's pretty good one-on-one, but the other's capabilities are not made super apparent. And Minfilia seems to be pretty much only good at standing there being worthless (though I do understand she's important because of story carryover from 1.0, though I can't remember exactly why right now). The only person in the room other than the WoL who has proven combat excellence is the guy that gets his arm chopped off, Raubahn. Now Raubahn's a beast for sure even with one arm, but it's still basically the two of you vs the Ul'dahn regular army and the Crystal Braves.
Still I liked my chances in that fight. I killed Phoenix and Midgardsormr (or at least his decaying husk... IT COUNTS). I feel like I could've made them pay for it at least.
Still I liked my chances in that fight. I killed Phoenix and Midgardsormr (or at least his decaying husk... IT COUNTS). I feel like I could've made them pay for it at least.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Callinon wrote:
It's not super clear at that point just what kind of power level the scions are sitting at. We know Thancred's pretty good one-on-one, but the other's capabilities are not made super apparent. And Minfilia seems to be pretty much only good at standing there being worthless (though I do understand she's important because of story carryover from 1.0, though I can't remember exactly why right now). The only person in the room other than the WoL who has proven combat excellence is the guy that gets his arm chopped off, Raubahn. Now Raubahn's a beast for sure even with one arm, but it's still basically the two of you vs the Ul'dahn regular army and the Crystal Braves.
Still I liked my chances in that fight. I killed Phoenix and Midgardsormr (or at least his decaying husk... IT COUNTS). I feel like I could've made them pay for it at least.
Still I liked my chances in that fight. I killed Phoenix and Midgardsormr (or at least his decaying husk... IT COUNTS). I feel like I could've made them pay for it at least.
Except for Yda, who has been shown in multiple cutscenes to absolutely kick b*tt (remember her little solo bout with the imperial girl with the gun who nobody could stand up against, who takes a full 8-man raid to handle?) and Papalymo who is shown not more than 2 minutes later, wiping out a whole hall of guys when teaming up with Yda.
Y'shtola is a conjurer; she doesn't have to be good offensively. I doubt that conjurer's wand is just for show.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2017 11:42pm by Lyrailis
Aren't the 8 man story dungeons technically just the WoL soloing it?
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1053318/
Quote:
Except for Yda, who has been shown in multiple cutscenes to absolutely kick b*tt (remember her little solo bout with the imperial girl with the gun who nobody could stand up against, who takes a full 8-man raid to handle?) and Papalymo who is shown not more than 2 minutes later, wiping out a whole hall of guys when teaming up with Yda.
Y'shtola is a conjurer; she doesn't have to be good offensively. I doubt that conjurer's wand is just for show.
Y'shtola is a conjurer; she doesn't have to be good offensively. I doubt that conjurer's wand is just for show.
No I didn't remember those. The ARR story was some time ago for me.
Fact remains the scions are unnecessary here. They're just extra. The WoL is more than capable of dealing with the problem.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
BrokenFox wrote:
Aren't the 8 man story dungeons technically just the WoL soloing it?
No, most of the dungeons make mention of "Bring some of your friends here." or "Gather some allies".
The WoL is assumed to have several adventurer friends that are never named or shown.
Quote:
No I didn't remember those. The ARR story was some time ago for me.
Fact remains the scions are unnecessary here. They're just extra. The WoL is more than capable of dealing with the problem.
True, there is that. I've done a few HW MSQ and one of the first quests, I chase a heretic into a basement.... and 4-5 more guys spawn and I wipe the floor with them. I'd assume the heretics are stronger than the brass blades, because the 'blades are merely sellswords and the heretics are fighting for something they believe in, and Ishgard is a country that has been at perpetual war, so the people living there are no stranger to battle. And they give trained knights a run for their money.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2017 7:20am by Lyrailis
Apologize for necro.
This is one of the more interesting FFXIV forum threads lately. I just have to add that I and the scions really stunk up the joint there. Felt really wimpy.
This is one of the more interesting FFXIV forum threads lately. I just have to add that I and the scions really stunk up the joint there. Felt really wimpy.
Pikko wrote:
I'm here with the Sticky Wand of Doom!!
Osanshouo wrote:
What makes an unbeatable game fun?
Your friends.
Your friends.
Crysania Majere 50WHM, 50SCH, 50SMN
Kraken Club - Ultros
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
Okay, so I'm 24 quests away from the very end of the MSQ (as of the date of this post), and I can kinda-sorta understand why the story writers decided to throw the Scions (and the PC) the idiot ball, but yet my feelings about the initial cutscene still stand.
In fact, if the PC and the Scions didn't have the idiot ball, they could have really screwed things up bigtime. If Lolorito had died during the banquet, for example... wow. That would have really messed things up.
Lolorito himself pulled a ridiculously reckless gamble that could have easily gotten himself killed. I mean, does nobody understand what the WoL is? Seriously. You don't turn grooved nails (lol, love ZAM's filter...) with the WoL. They were just lucky that he/she didn't just lay waste to every brass blade in the city by the time they were done, lol.
And, spoiler warning for a later part of the game:
The WoL is that person that even the most powerful people, like the expy of the pope (after he tried to become a deity) goes "WHAT are you!?" to seconds before he dies (one of the coolest cutscenes in the game... that face darkening effect really hammers it home that these people that you are roflstomping are utterly confused and shocked when you so easily brush them aside like they were nothing).
The WoL is basically the Commander Shepard of Eorzea.
Edited, May 18th 2017 11:08pm by Lyrailis
In fact, if the PC and the Scions didn't have the idiot ball, they could have really screwed things up bigtime. If Lolorito had died during the banquet, for example... wow. That would have really messed things up.
Lolorito himself pulled a ridiculously reckless gamble that could have easily gotten himself killed. I mean, does nobody understand what the WoL is? Seriously. You don't turn grooved nails (lol, love ZAM's filter...) with the WoL. They were just lucky that he/she didn't just lay waste to every brass blade in the city by the time they were done, lol.
And, spoiler warning for a later part of the game:
The WoL is that person that even the most powerful people, like the expy of the pope (after he tried to become a deity) goes "WHAT are you!?" to seconds before he dies (one of the coolest cutscenes in the game... that face darkening effect really hammers it home that these people that you are roflstomping are utterly confused and shocked when you so easily brush them aside like they were nothing).
The WoL is basically the Commander Shepard of Eorzea.
Edited, May 18th 2017 11:08pm by Lyrailis
"I am Hyrist Varis and this is my favorite store in Idylshire."
Seriously though. They take pains to indicate clearly that the WoL is significantly weaker then the point they were pulling off mighty feats. Remember that Midgardsormr sealed the crystals at this time. Afterwards the game gives a clear comparison point of strength difference with the Nabralias fight. Lahabrea, who we wipe the floor with, is supposed to be on the same power level as Nab, but the former is clearly a much tougher fight.
Additionally it is shown that we are without weapon upon entering the Saltana's chamber. (That's confirmed in the Drk questline.) Between the two, the Warrior of Light is supposed to be depicted as uniquely vulnerable, and a moment of time in which this exploit would actually work. Beyond that, the Scions seem rather insistent on not risking wols life against innumerable enemies, as they have become over reliant on them. It is all feasible, just a bit heavy handed.
Seriously though. They take pains to indicate clearly that the WoL is significantly weaker then the point they were pulling off mighty feats. Remember that Midgardsormr sealed the crystals at this time. Afterwards the game gives a clear comparison point of strength difference with the Nabralias fight. Lahabrea, who we wipe the floor with, is supposed to be on the same power level as Nab, but the former is clearly a much tougher fight.
Additionally it is shown that we are without weapon upon entering the Saltana's chamber. (That's confirmed in the Drk questline.) Between the two, the Warrior of Light is supposed to be depicted as uniquely vulnerable, and a moment of time in which this exploit would actually work. Beyond that, the Scions seem rather insistent on not risking wols life against innumerable enemies, as they have become over reliant on them. It is all feasible, just a bit heavy handed.
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