I dont think anyone can disagree with this article.Follow

Hio, continuing to mash up all your same talking points into giant walls of text isn't helping your cause.

Take a deep breath, and stick with the Xs and Os. Stop projecting your displeasure of others not taking the game as seriously as you do.

Edited, Sep 4th 2016 7:56pm by Thayos

Which just exacerbates the time issue. You're okay with needing 2+ weeks just to figure out/kill a single mob. Not everyone else is, especially when you consider they may not be running it with the same people each time.

I can't really think of any other game/genre where I've needed weeks to overcome a particular challenge. If it's something I step into and get summarily squashed, I start asking myself, "What caused that?" So in a second attempt, I begin looking for any sort of signs that might've triggered the failure. Since I'm more the RPG fan, that means things like keeping an eye on a mob's HP level, and if battlefield positioning is a factor, things like where someone might've been standing or a possible warning queue. If I find it's something that can't be avoided, I shift more to mitigating around that point, and so on.

Of course, RPGs being what they are, sometimes it's simply a matter of leveling a bit more and perhaps finding some better gear elsewhere. That's not really a luxury in these games, though, since the source of gear tends to be what people struggle on with leveling already long since capped barring merit-like systems. And in the case of the latter, if you hit a point where content is only possible unless you've dumped X amount of time into extraneous leveling, well, we're flirting with the inaccessibility angle again. XI is having this problem with the Job Mastery system, as an example.

Not everyone gets so emotionally invested, either. For troublesome content, you can hit a point where when you finally do beat it, you might think, "Finally, I don't have to touch this **** again..." Yet, that's simply not true for raids. You've gotta fight the same mobs over and over for weeks/months on end while the tokens pile up and RNG drops may/may not cooperate. When confronted by the monotony of those unfun challenges, morale is going to plummet. It truly does start to feel like a grind. Further factor people are often working jobs they don't like just so they can fund the things they do like, and it's not surprising some ultimately swear off the content altogether. To bring up XI again, that's exactly why I came to hate Salvage. Yet you'll find people who think it's the best content SE ever did.

"You can't please everyone..." may be an accurate sentiment, but I don't think it unfair to assert devs aren't working enough to please as many as possible. And part of this is the fault of what money XIV makes, in this case, isn't devoted to it first and foremost. The rest is not falling into the trap of just because a game is online, you have to be playing with someone else 24/7.

And you've highlighted two issues there:
1) It's by design
2) Lacking alternative content to help keep you busy.

We're technically arguing to do something about point #2. You don't have to like it all, mind you, but the goal should be to give you more to do. On the other hand, if all you want to do is raid and forget everything else, that "choice" is way more your fault than why someone can't/won't raid.

And I just said a few posts ago how my content static is now working through coil because several members couldn't clear it back when it was relevant.

That's why this is silly... Hio is freaking out over arguments she has already lost.

No one is saying this but you.

Have I missed something? Has Thayos been beating the drum for expelling raiders from the game? While I don't claim to have read all 5500ish of his posts, I seriously doubt he's advocating for the removal of raiding. He's asking (and several other people) for resources to be focused where the players actually are, which is at the casual-midcore level and not at the high end hardcore level where currently about 1% of the players are and about 50% of the development time seems to go.

That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. He's asking for a progression path aimed at the broader audience.

The only thing I'm sure is that I quit a few days ago, and I don't plan on coming back unless a better writer will be hired to actually close the story and not create an entire sidequest expansion(not going to happen) or the ridicolous tomestone cycle will be scrapped (and not for raiding, by the way, just that the repetition is way boring), something that I don't expect to happen either.

Yeah, I did say that, but I feel like my intent was pretty clear when I said it, given the context of the dialogue. And I have clarified my stance many, many times since then. And several of us have recommended how SE could implement progression content other than raiding. So much so that I'm just not going to rehash everything again... just feel like we're all chasing our tails at this point. Though I do like the tone and substance of the recent posts in here.

I think the biggest obstacle to progression is the structure of current fights. There are too few bosses with too many mechanics each. Each boss takes weeks to learn and each fight is 10-15 minutes long spanning multiple phases often each with their own unique set of mechanics to memorize. That's insane.

Make more bosses but with fewer mechanics in each fight. Spread the mechanic ideas out among more fights and the bosses actually become more interesting as a result because each can focus on doing their own thing in an interesting way rather than having to showcase 12 mechanics each over a marathon fight.

I've heard this argument before, many, many times before, and each time it echoes the same hollow level of BS when compared to the facts. And that's not at you Filty, the argument itself just does not hold weight. The rewards themselves don't have a point as they're being presented.

Providing elitism level incentives don't work. When content is unappealing, it's unappealing. When players want to do something, incentive is often an afterthought. You've got the priorities on your stance backwards from the realities, both in philosophy and in raw data metrics across the genre.

It's not just FFXIV, it's raiding across the board that has about a 1-2% clear rate for their highest raid ranks. Most MMOs have tried to cater this down by creating multiple rankings of gear, but this has proven to show signs of fatigue against raiding participation in general.

So both in terms of raiding as being attractive, in spite of the rewards (even among raiders) and overall raid participation in general are both not doing well. Putting 'the best' in there isn't cutting it. The whole argument behind that is both a red herring, and a strawman - usually without even really understanding that it is both a red herring and a strawman. It. Is. Not. Working. I'm sorry, but what you think brings people in isn't really what brings people in - it's just a dumb justification that looks good in theory.



In truth, to have proper enticement for raids, you don't need to have the 'objectively best' to want to go through the 'objectively hardest' content. Ambuscade currently in FFXI proves that players will select the hardest of difficulties if it expedites them the same reward pool at a higher rate - implying the best reward you can give is more respect for their time. Moreover, so long as the loot is unique enough, and relevant to what they are doing - players will go after it in the manner they like the most not necessarily the manner they think is easiest.

The balance difficulty here for base progression is making sure the fights are tuned against the grind in such that the skilled at raids get their rewards quicker than the diligent at grinding - giving players what they want the most: Playstyle options.

The enticement difficulty is to make sure that the reward structures are not only equal in pursuit ,but unique to context. Raid gear for raiding, PvP gear for PvP, Deep Dungeon Gear for Deep dungeon - giving players what they want the most: Relevancy.

The longevity difficulty, in this case, is to create something that gives them something they're going to cherish beyond the next ilvl raise. Providing an alternative progression (in FFXIV's case, contextual skills I feel would be the most fitting solution) that can be collected and used to some effect across gameplay will give players another thing they've been wanting: A lasting since of accomplishment.

Right now, FFXIV lacks for all three of these major points on all levels - and the Raid Centrist structure is a huge culprit in that - in the end only really appealing to a narrow band of completion that most often tolerate the difficulty, rather than crave it. And the reward system fails to properly reward even those people. But the answer lies not in amount of value, but in the method of reward.



TLDR;
IMO, time gating should not be an issue for raiders, it should be not AS MUCH of an issue for grinders as it is now, but I still think it should be a factor. Endgame itself should be relevant across multiple platforms besides just raiding, with reward structures that is not about hierarchy as it is about contextualization. In addition, each of these accomplishments should provide rewards with a sense of tactile permanence beyond glamour. Failure to meet these markers will simply continue to show the same signs of fatigue relevant across the genre.

Right now, there is no point no matter how you spin it. The enticement isn't relevant enough - it's not a matter of power or level of reward above others.

As said, it was definitely said, there's really no other way to take "kick raiders to the curb if it were up to me", as said english isn't my first language, but I know enough of it to know when you "kick people to the curb" you're not saying "this is how it should be done better." I just really hate how it seems like I simply made that up when you can pretty much read it on any community that has a thing against raiding. Hence why I repeat it a lot, because even on OF people have stated countless times, including some cross posters here, Raiding and Raiders should be gone and "move on" from that concept, but usually only when they reply to certain people.

How is that not saying get rid of it, I don't know. Maybe I don't understand English as well as I thought.




Save your money. Yoshida already confirmed twice now they're not diverting from this formula. The better writers did the storyline content people seem to hate (Binding Coil) and have since never touched the game in a large manner aside a quest here or there.



Binding Coil + Ex Primal progression working together. That alone would solve a lot of the problems. Yoshida has went on record to say there's a lot they CAN do but CHOOSE NOT to do, so it's not that they can't figure it out, this "works" so they don't want to divert. The biggest problem is indeed the battle system which is why I always kind of chuckle when I see RDM suggestions and how they say it could "melee and use black/white magic" or "mix magic with melee.." sorry, FFXIV doesn't work that way. You're either/or.



Based on census (you keep quoting low clear % so this applies), the highest clear rate is 15% prior to HW and 12% post HW. Where is this 1-2% clear rate? Most JP servers were sitting well over 6-15%. The NA servers had A LOT of sub 1% clears, that is true, but you have to realize when you add up all of the clear rates of UNOFFICIAL, INACCURATE NUMBERS, it's still more than 1-2%, let alone trying to say they're a "tiny player base"



It doesn't to you, but it does from a game design perspective.

Progression content includes raiding, especially in XIV's design.

Why do Nidhogg Ex for an ILEVEL 235 WEAPON...when you can do Palace of the Dead for the same ilvl weapon that is actually superior for an obscenely less amount of work? Nevermind the fact you can NOW obtain an ILEVEL 240 weapon for almost no work at all via Weeping City since most people (who cared) has a lore weapon by now even when Midan Gears were once a week. That's 1 run of Midas 4 for 7 weeks since Midas's introduction and 1000 tomes takes almost no time at all.

So the argument is, casual players make the same progress as raiders, which is fine but, what about the raids? Why do that? Palace of the dead introduction absoultely KILLED Nidhogg Ex (even though Nidhogg has 2 better weapons) and that's not even raid content.

Diadem KILLED Gordias Savage because most gear were BiS due to its Aetherial Nature. Whether you like raiding or not, if there's an EASY VENUE to get the best gear, people will take it, because the REWARDS are good and you spend less time and effort getting it. (seriously, people were botting Diadem.)



Because they DIDN'T put the best in there lol. That's why EVEN YOSHIDA said Coil did far better. There is NO REASON to do Midas Savage especially once weeping city came out because 230 baseline weekly drops supplemented with Lore drops = You're ready for 4.0's content due to crafting giving you easy access to the next tier. (Yoshida's own words.)

The ONLY thing Midas Savage offers is a weapon at this point and that alone is definitely not attractive enough. You can do hunts for more Lore upgrade items instead of dealing with the lockout on weeping city. So..again, when one tier of content has obsolete drops..why do it? This is why people bringing up "even with echo no one does A4S" because why would you run something for gear that serves you no purpose? Nothing will make Alexander Savage attractive because they already messed that up with A3S. Coil was very attractive despite what people seriously want to believe. The guy who runs the damn game even said so which is why they wanted to give a "harder" set because they were introducing a story mode people requested.



That's called horizontal progression. This game is ilevel based. Meaning Ilvl250 gear is the same across the board with 1 or 2 stat differences, i.e

300 Det 340 Crit
vs
300 Skill Speed 340 Parry

Until they introduce better itemization, the problem is, no matter how you slice it, it's not "holding onto archaic designs", it's the simple matter of fact that this game has a very specific itemization that offering the same level rewards, especially in easier to obtain methods...WILL negate any harder content.

We already seen it happen a few times, which is why they never did it again. Shiva Ex is still the last primal to drop armor of any kind alongside weapons that were actually upgrades for the time. So the only way to truly change the end-game layout, is by adding special stats and creating a reason to do every content regardless if it's "easy" or "harder" because every segment of content offers something relevant for everyone, you will never see the same ilvl gear varying in stat differences unless they're different tiers ("Grey"/"Green"/"Blue"/"Pink"/"Purple") since for example PoTD is "green" tier which means despite being 235, the stats aren't maxed off, so even though it has a main stat you like, you can still add materia to max out the secondaries, i.e BRD's bow has a ton of crit..and can get even more crit on it due to the tier of gear it is.

But alas, as even Filth said, it is essentially being suggested to replace the raid content. a small % of people do it, cool. Barely half of the players cleared the easy storyline on either parsing and significantly less are were even level 50, let alone 60 and ready to do content so in all actuality, people at max level make up an equally small % of players in the grand scheme of things...but no one is suggesting getting rid of level 50/60 content or only focus on introducing leveling content.

Speaking of numbers: http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/17q1earnings.pdf I noticed this is one of the first times they've failed to mention FFXIV and DQX (since they seem to usually be so proud of what they bring to the company.) Hm..guess we'll see if they mention it in November or around 3.5, since in one of their last reports, they stated DQX and XIV were their largest revenue stream..actually kind of lines up with some stuff Yoshida said recently whenever someone asked him about incentives for playing the game consistently.

Edited, Sep 7th 2016 4:37pm by Theonehio

Technically No Man's Sky still counts as independent, but yes, trying too much to be edgy and create something unique - only to pretty much in that case create an overblown tech demo.

For sure, it's an indie game, but I'd put it more on par with a large studio launch simply because of the magnitude of the launch and the hype received from Sony.

I don't blame game developers for being afraid to take risks. Like you said, the risk takers are usually the ones who pay the price. I mean, look at Wildstar. An MMO developer finally listened to the hardcore playerbase that pines for "old school" gaming experiences, and then -- big surprise -- the game totally flopped because so few people found it to be fun.

FFXIV is on the other end of the spectrum. The devs have played it a little too safe, and the consequences are predictable updates and an endgame scene that's only really good for "traditional" endgame raiders -- who are in dwindling supply. Overall, the formula for XIV is fine, but the game would definitely be better off if SE mixed things up a bit, especially at endgame.