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#27 Mar 20 2019 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll also recommend something that you hear all the time, but it amazing how many people don't bother. Diet and exercise, right? The second part is critically important. I think far too many people think "I'll just go on a diet and lose some weight". And yeah, you might lose some weight, for a while. And you'll likely gain it right back over time too.

While the keto diet thing is interesting, my spidey sense tells me that there's probably a cost to it that isn't terribly healthy. A far better long term solution is to get into a workout routine that includes a decent cardio workout. That's the best way to get into an actual fat burning state, naturally, and without whacking out your body's balance. Of course, it takes effort and is very hard to start.

Diet alone usually doesn't work well. Not in the long run, and not without some serious potential health side effects. I'm not talking hard core workouts here. Just a few days a week, spending some time stretching and doing some basic warmups, followed by something more strenuous. Get a cheap exercise bike or something and use it. Just go until your heart rate is up, breathing is heavy, and you're sweating a bit, and then go say five minutes longer. Once you get your body into fat burning mode, it'll actually stay in that mode for quite some time, so this gives you the best bang for your buck, so to speak. Obviously, the harder you go, the faster you'll get results, but too many people go manic on that, decide it's too hard, and then quit. Stick with something you can commit to do regularly and it may take longer, but you will see results.
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#28 Mar 20 2019 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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Not that I'm keen with agreeing with gbaji on anything...


haha!! LEIK OLDE TYMES, AMIRITE??!?


...many years ago when I was married, we moved next door to a couple who were both "forties-fit". Not sculpted or anything is what I'm saying, but fit. The lady of the house's routine was simple:

1. Fresh food.
2. No sweet baked goods.
3. Rode her stationary bike to Pluto and back.

She showed us "before" pictures at some point and the woman had been a beach-ball. That simple routine kept her fit for years.

As a side notes, she still baked all kinds of sweet goodies, because she loved to bake, and me and mine got pretty much all her oven out-put.Smiley: drool
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#29 Mar 21 2019 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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The thing about keto: It's a jump start, and once it does, your appetite goes down quite a bit, as fat is a more efficient fuel than sugar, and after the initial start, if you keep your sugar intake to below 20 grams per day of natrual sugars, and no added sugars, you won't have to do much to lose weight/keep it off. I speak from experience, I lost 40 pounds with a keto kickstart, and have kept it off for almost a year. I eat the occasional sweet, but keep it reasonable.

This is the link that I used when I started my low sugar diet.

Edited, Mar 21st 2019 8:04am by stupidmonkey
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#30 Mar 21 2019 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Diet alone usually doesn't work well. Not in the long run, and not without some serious potential health side effects.
Exercise is not required for weight loss. Exercise is great for your health, but diet is what's important for weight loss. If you're not eating right, exercise won't do you any good. If you're eating well, exercise isn't necessary to lose the weight.

You can't outrun your fork.

Again. Don't get me wrong. Exercise is important for your health. Exercise is DAMN good for you. But it's got little to do with weight loss(not nothing, since it does help with insulin sensitivity, but you can do better on that with diet).
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
The thing about keto: It's a jump start, and once it does, your appetite goes down quite a bit, as fat is a more efficient fuel than sugar, and after the initial start, if you keep your sugar intake to below 20 grams per day of natrual sugars, and no added sugars, you won't have to do much to lose weight/keep it off. I speak from experience, I lost 40 pounds with a keto kickstart, and have kept it off for almost a year. I eat the occasional sweet, but keep it reasonable.

This is the link that I used when I started my low sugar diet.
To expand on this based on what I've learned in my year, appetite is a big part, but more important it seems is hormones. Hormones control your appetite. They control how you store fat. Keeping your sugars fairly low keeps your insulin from unbalancing, which helps you process leptin which keeps you from bingeing.

Great job on keeping the weight off. Reaching about a year myself since I started(a couple days til the official date, I think?) and it has been pretty easy most of the time. Every once in a while I stray, but even then, I don't feel any desire to go nuts like I used to. My "I probably shouldn't have eaten that" meals are no longer half a cake, an entire pizza or whatever. They're things like "a can of Dr. Pepper" or a bag of peanut butter M&Ms. :P
#31 Mar 21 2019 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Diet alone usually doesn't work well. Not in the long run, and not without some serious potential health side effects.
Exercise is not required for weight loss. Exercise is great for your health, but diet is what's important for weight loss. If you're not eating right, exercise won't do you any good. If you're eating well, exercise isn't necessary to lose the weight.


My position is that neither works nearly as well on its own. As you say, if you just exercise and don't manage your diet, you can't "outrun your fork" (like that phrase btw!). But dieting without exercise is putting all the work on lowering your caloric intake, which your body doesn't necessarily respond to the way you might think. Again, excepting the keto diet, which is an interesting way to do things, and does work, but I've also heard that it can cause quite a shock to the system when you first switch to it, and can be difficult to maintain for a significant length of time.

At the end of the day, fat is where your body stores long term emergency energy. It's essentially the very last thing your body will burn for fuel if it has a choice in the matter. The keto diet works because it eliminates sugars (all forms of carbohydrates), which forces the body to burn fat directly even when at a normal activity level. Similarly, a cardio workout will exhaust the bodies available sugar supply (again, designed for a normal activity level), and force the same fat conversion. And it has the added bonus of building up muscle mass and tone, and generally making your more healthy.

Regular dieting by itself is absolutely awful at trying to lose weight because your body will simply lower it's "normal" energy output level to account for the reduced caloric intake. So cell repair/growth slows down, making your joints ache, muscles atrophy, connective tissues weaken (making injuries more likely), weaken your immune system, etc. You'll feel weak, hungry, and tired (your body is constantly telling you "eat something!"). And again, the very last thing your body will give up is those fat cells and the energy they contain that it thinks is necessary to prevent starvation in the case you go for long periods without any food at all. This is why people do the whole yo-yo thing with dieting. It sucks. They see very little weight loss (mostly water weight), and then it comes right back when they give up (and sometimes a bit more).

If you are doing normal caloric intake reduction (which is not a bad thing btw), you'll get massively better results if you combine that with a regular cardio workout. That's all I'm saying here.

I'll also take this opportunity to observe that we as a culture are far too weight obsessed. I think that health is more important. Look in the mirror, not at a scale. Be honest about how you feel. Are you out of breath walking up a flight of stairs? Do you have to work to get out of a chair? Can you tie your shoes without your belly getting in the way? Those are the things you should be using as measuring sticks, not weight.
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#32 Mar 21 2019 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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I do always forget to mention that if you are Diabetic, the Keto diet is not for you. Like, at all. Very bad!

ETA: Tying my shoes was why I decided to try Keto My belly was in the way, and pushed against my lungs. And in like two months, I went from 205 to 165, and I am now at 167, almost a year later. For 5'9.5", that is almost the ideal weight, I can tie my shoes, and I feel better. Also, when I do binge, I might gain a pound or two, but it falls back off after my indulgence. I can feel the effects of the sugar afterwards, and it is not an appealing feeling, like most other drugs.

Edited, Mar 21st 2019 11:09am by stupidmonkey
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#33 Mar 21 2019 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Hah! Yeah, the whole "OMG, I'd better finish tying this fast because I can't breathe!" bit. That was when I decided I really needed to do something too.

I can't do the keto diet. Um... Not for any specific health reason, but well... pizza and beer reasons.
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#34 Mar 21 2019 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm waiting for the middle-age metabolism crash before I bother with diet and exercise. When does that happen, your fifties? Sixties?
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#35 Mar 21 2019 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I'm waiting for the middle-age metabolism crash before I bother with diet and exercise. When does that happen, your fifties? Sixties?

I was always small and slim without worrying about what I ate. In my late forties I started putting on some weight. My activity level dropped off and menopause kicked in. So.....who knows why. I didn't gain a ton of weight and would still be considered within my range.

I eat much less now - for various reasons. But mostly I just don't need feel the need for three full meals anymore.
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#36 Mar 21 2019 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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About a year and half ago I had a fairly significantly painful back injury. I say injury, but it wasn't caused by anything that I could put a finger on, it just started hurting and got so bad I ended up in the ER. Lots of bodily fluid samples, a good bit of poking and prodding, an MRI and some X-rays later, and I still have no idea what caused it. Nobody could find anything actually wrong with my back. Which is incredibly frustrating since it was the single most painful thing I've ever been through, and I've broken both bones in my right forearm.

The only good thing to come out of that episode was that during one of my doctor visits, the doc asked me if I wanted to get a midlife screening or some such. I figured I'm already there, I might as well bleed a bit more. It turns out my LDL was dangerously high, and my blood sugar was borderline diabetes. I suppose that's what you get for taking a desk job and not changing, what was admittedly, a terrible diet.

Now, I'm taking some fun new pills, and for the most part, not enjoying food anymore. All of the foods that I used to take for granted are now off the list. I won't bore you with the specifics, but after changing my ways, I've lost a little over fifty pounds with a bit more to go. I've started some light exercises, mostly some stuff I can do at home, I'm not really gym type of person. All of my numbers have improved significantly, and I'm on the slow boring road to good health.

I still occasionally have back issues, but so far, nothing as bad as what started all of this.
#37 Mar 22 2019 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of backs, I've had recurring back issues for years. Other than going to the ER for sciatica, or lung pleurisy, I haven't had any definitive treatment but along with other random symptoms, somebody suggested I may have ankylosing spondylitis, which pretty much means the soft cartilage in my spine is fusing solid.
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#38 Mar 23 2019 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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Not to stereotype, but if you're on a forum like this your problem is almost certainly sitting down too much. Especially if you're leaning forwards in your chair while gaming or typing.
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#39 Mar 24 2019 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I do always forget to mention that if you are Diabetic, the Keto diet is not for you. Like, at all. Very bad!
Gonna strongly disagree with that. It's actually a very good thing for diabetics. It does come with some extra work if you're type 1, but it's still a good idea.

Quote:
If you are doing normal caloric intake reduction (which is not a bad thing btw), you'll get massively better results if you combine that with a regular cardio workout. That's all I'm saying here.
That's not necessarily wrong(as you'll be helping your insulin sensitivity via exercise, which you're not addressing by restricting calories), but unless you're addressing your dietary imbalance by lowering starches/sugars, increasing fiber, protein and fat, you're not doing anything to deal with the root problem if you're just cutting calories. And you're probably hungry all the time. Talking about unsustainable? Being hungry all the time is definitely unsustainable.

Keto is "unsustainable" in that it requires you to put a bit more effort in and there's social pressure from others to "not restrict yourself". Calorie restriction is unsustainable at a biological level. Your body doesn't like it. And mother nature always wins.
#40 Mar 24 2019 at 1:53 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I can't do the keto diet. Um... Not for any specific health reason, but well... pizza and beer reasons.
Can't help you with beer, but you really should try fathead pizza. Since I discovered that, normal pizza no longer compares. This video makes a double batch. Also I'd recommend adding seasoning to the crust. A bit of garlic and some dried basil is my favorite.

Cauliflower crust pizza is also pretty good, but it takes more effort and isn't nearly as tasty. Though, I guess, if you're not doing keto and just want to up your veggies, it's still a good option.

The fact that I don't like beer has been pretty helpful to me in switching to keto, if I'm being honest. I barely drink at all anyway, and when I do, a shot of hard liquor in some Zevia does the job. I guess I could also be stupid and mix a Rockstar Pure Zero with some vodka or something, but that sounds like a bad idea.
#41 Mar 24 2019 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I do always forget to mention that if you are Diabetic, the Keto diet is not for you. Like, at all. Very bad!
Gonna strongly disagree with that. It's actually a very good thing for diabetics. It does come with some extra work if you're type 1, but it's still a good idea.


I have been misinformed, going to do some more research. My friend who is Diabetic had told me she tried Keto. But I think she is Type 1 and stopped taking Insulin? I dunno, I am not diabetic.

ETA: Formatting issues

Edited, Mar 25th 2019 11:19am by stupidmonkey
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#42 Mar 25 2019 at 2:05 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I am not diabetic.
You're di-ADORABLE!!!



ALSO: Ever find the daughter? For what it's worth more prayers than just mine have been p-mailed on this issue.

I really hope you get some resolution, there, brother.
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#43 Mar 25 2019 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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I did find her and her family, they moved to Port Angeles, Washington. Her mother and her grandmother have brainwashed her, and I have not actually spoken to her since 2013, but I pretty much own every mention of her name on the internet, meaning when her mother finally allows her a chance to USE the internet, if she googles herself, everything recent that she finds will point back to me.

Her two great aunts and, in a separate incident, an ex-friend of her mothers have both reached out to me via email after discovering the video that I shot about this whole situation, and they both have confirmed the fact that it is a bad home life for her, that her mother mistreats her, and has for 19 years, keeping her in isolation both socially and electronically. Her great aunt told me a story about how my daughter was in an argument with her mother, my daughter screamed "I wanna go live with my dad"

I showed up on their doorstep last year, after the great aunts tracked down the family, and was greeted with a stonewall from baby mama. Did not get to see or talk to my daughter, but at the very least, I know where she is.
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#44 Mar 26 2019 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
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If you are doing normal caloric intake reduction (which is not a bad thing btw), you'll get massively better results if you combine that with a regular cardio workout. That's all I'm saying here.
That's not necessarily wrong(as you'll be helping your insulin sensitivity via exercise, which you're not addressing by restricting calories), but unless you're addressing your dietary imbalance by lowering starches/sugars, increasing fiber, protein and fat, you're not doing anything to deal with the root problem if you're just cutting calories. And you're probably hungry all the time. Talking about unsustainable? Being hungry all the time is definitely unsustainable.


I was just saying that if you are already engaged in caloric reduction to your diet (which you'd somewhat have to do along the way while reducing your weight from say 300lbs to 200 or so), then you'll get much better results in terms of overall health if you also use cardio exercises. This is because the cardio workout will itself burn fat faster than just eating less. Additionally, since you are working out, you'll burn more calories while doing that.

I guess what I'm saying is that in order to get that kind of weight reduction via dieting alone (again, I'm assuming a more standard "eat less food, and eat a good balance of food" diet change and not something like keto), it's going to take a very long time, and as you say, you'll be very hungry the whole time. Meaning it'll be hard to stick to the diet. If you do a balance of diet and exercise, then you can achieve the same weight loss, in less time, and without having to actually reduce the caloric intake as much (or as abruptly). Meaning that it's easier to maintain for a longer period of time (ideally, it can and should become your new "normal"), allowing you to reach an ideal weight and health and stay there rather than yo-yo diet like most people fall into.

Quote:
Keto is "unsustainable" in that it requires you to put a bit more effort in and there's social pressure from others to "not restrict yourself".


It's a lot more than just that. There are some very real and serious potential health issues with the keto diet. People tend to jump on these things as a fad, don't properly research, and cause more harm than good. Call me silly, but I have a very strong skepticism about anything that looks like a free lunch. There's pretty much always going to be a catch. Done properly, and with sufficient advice (preferably from an actual medical professional), it can be a quick way to lose some weight. But most health experts advise to only use it as a means to get to a weight goal, and then to transition (again, properly) to a more balanced diet. And even then, there are potential health risks.

We also simply don't know at all what the long term effects of keto as a sustained diet may be. There aren't enough people who've done it for long enough to have sufficient data. On the other hand, we have a very long history of knowledge about regular balanced diets and how they effect our bodies long term. Not that this doesn't prevent various agencies to go back and forth on what's good, what's not, how much of this, that or whatever. But that very fact should give us pause about the veracity of any claims about keto. Too many of the voices out there seem to have more of a vested interest in promoting their "side" than in doing honest objective evaluations.

Quote:
Calorie restriction is unsustainable at a biological level. Your body doesn't like it. And mother nature always wins.


Sure. If you're restricting your caloric intake to less than what your body needs to sustain itself. But if you're 300lbs, you're already quite obviously eating far more than your body actually needs. Reducing your calories as you reduce your weight is natural and mother nature will be just fine with it. If you reach say a 200lb goal, your body will now only "need" calories to support a 200lb weight. It's just a matter of getting there. Once you do, you can absolutely sustain that new, lower level.

Edited, Mar 26th 2019 5:17pm by gbaji
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#45 Mar 31 2019 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

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Increased risk of heart disease and diabetes
WTF?! Smiley: laugh

Yeah, sorry, that's absolutely wrong. The rest is generally less than 100 percent correct and more nuanced. If you're following a keto diet, for instance, you're actually LESS likely to have to worry about ketoacidosis, as high blood sugar is part of what causes your body to be unable to uptake the ketones and allows them to build up in the blood. If you're on keto, that's almost certainly not a problem.

The muscle mass thing is SILLY.

The weight regain section goes on the faulty assumption that it's not sustainable. You have to change the way you think about food. You have to make a few changes. But it's absolutely sustainable.

Reduced athletic performance? Yes, and also very no. Keto will likely affect your burst strength. But it's actually great for endurance. Ketones are the all day long burn fuel. Muscle glycogen is the "I need to burst out some immediate power" fuel. You'll store less muscle glycogen on keto, so you will likely see some lowering of one rep max lifts. If you're a Jeff Foxworthy fan, it's akin to his joke about the differences of men(bottle rockets) and women(diesel engines) in bed.

Diarrhea and keto flu are indeed absolutely true. And also very short term, and almost completely avoidable with planning. I missed the former entirely because my gall bladder had gotten its workout as I've been slowly heading towards this over several years and did things correctly, because proper keto is fairly high in vegetables. Keto flu mostly just requires you making sure you're getting enough salt, magnesium and potassium. I got it pretty bad back in the early 2000s when I tried Atkins. But this time, I was much more prepared and had very minimal symptoms.

As for heart disease, the jury is still out on that one. If you're still subscribing to the lipid hypothesis, then sure, it does. It will almost certainly raise cholesterol(both HDL and LDL). But it's generally less inflammatory than the standard American diet which means this really is less of an issue.
#46 Apr 01 2019 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Quote:
Increased risk of heart disease and diabetes
WTF?! Smiley: laugh

Yeah, sorry, that's absolutely wrong. The rest is generally less than 100 percent correct and more nuanced. If you're following a keto diet, for instance, you're actually LESS likely to have to worry about ketoacidosis, as high blood sugar is part of what causes your body to be unable to uptake the ketones and allows them to build up in the blood. If you're on keto, that's almost certainly not a problem.


Let me start by stating that I don't really have a horse in this race, and I've certainly not spent a huge amount of time researching the keto diet. I've head of it, know people who've used it, but that's about it. My comments are based on my own personal skepticism of the safety of any sort of diet that involves radically changing what you eat in order to create some kind of magic effect on your body, ultimately with the goal of fast weigh loss without having to do things like exercise.

Having said that, just clicking the link on the web site I linked shows that ketoacidosis isn't the result of too much sugar in the blood, so somehow by not having sugar at all (or very little), it can't happen (which is what your argument appears to be about). Increased ketones in the blood occurs because when the body has insufficient sugar in the cells (in the case of diabetics because the body isn't properly processing the sugar, resulting in it being in the blood instead of in the cells), the body responds to the lack of sugar to use as fuel by burning fat instead. And ketones in the blood are a symptom of the body doing that.

It's not the level of sugar in the blood that causes it, but that the lack of sugar in the cells which causes ketosis, which in turn results in higher ketones in the blood. And if you get too much in the blood, it can become acidic. The takeaway I'm getting (remember, I've not spent a ton of time researching this and by no means consider myself an expert on the subject), is that the keto diet essentially does deliberately what happens to diabetics as a side effect of their condition (and what happens for shortish periods of time when engaging in cardio workouts).

I don't see anything in the article I read about high blood sugar inhibiting the body's ability to absorb ketones in the blood (but I"m not discounting it), but only that low "cell" sugar causes ketosis (burning fat for fuel), which results in ketone buildup in the blood. High blood sugar is not the cause, but a symptom of diabetes which may result in low cell sugar, which in turn causes ketosis. So yeah, my admittedly amateur understanding would suggest that this could be a reasonable risk to someone on a keto diet. Especially if they are not doing so carefully.


As to everything else, see my point above about not spending a ton of time researching, but also my default skepticism of the latest diet fad. I've seen a lot of these come and go, and every single one of them has had some pretty harmful side effects (admittedly due to folks jumping on the fad and not doing things correctly in most cases).

I'll also point out my initial starting point in this. That people go to enormous amounts of effort and put up with a ton of additional side effects and changes to their lifestyle just to avoid the much less impact causing, much less side effect causing, and frankly far more positive additional effects that doing the "exercise" side of "diet and exercise" entails. It's just baffling to me when people speak of all the time and effort and pain involved in something like this, when simple exercise would be far far more beneficial to them.

I spend approximately 2 hours a week total working out. That's it. 30 minutes in the morning, four days a week. About half of that is stretching and basic calesthenics, the other half either light weights (dumbells), or cardio. That's it. Yeah. It's a bit painful starting out, especially if your muscles haven't been worked for a while. But once you get into it, the benefits are amazing. I don't wake up with neck or back pain 3-4 days out of the week. I don't have to work to get out of a reclining chair. I can do things like lift my legs up and hold them out of the way if someone needs to get by, without straining. I have better core strength than I would otherwise. I don't get sick as often (seriously. used to get a cold or flu at least twice a year, now maybe once every other year, I'll succumb to something). And I look a hell of a lot better in the mirror.

And along the way? I don't have to worry much about what kinds of food I eat. I don't have to scan the menu at a restaurant for something that doesn't have any carbs in it (which is darn few things I imagine). I just need to keep the portions reasonable, and balance what I eat to a reasonable degree. I don't have to put up with any of the symptoms or "maybe a problem, but we don't know for sure" stuff. The "side effects" of even a modest regular exercise plan are all positive. Yet, despite this, we have so many people apparently so unwilling to just get out of their easy chairs and do some minor amount of exercise that they'll go through ridiculous hoops to avoid it.

And that, I simply don't get. I mean, I get that people don't do this. I have friends who own at least two or more pieces of exercise equipment, that they bought because they wanted to "get into shape", that are sitting collecting dust, while they are getting rounder and rounder, and complaining of all sorts of health problems. I've seen the same friends go on yo-yo diet after yo-yo diet, complaining all the way. And when I suggest politely that maybe they should use the treadmill or exercise bike they have, they say something like "it's too hard", or "it doesn't work". Well, yeah. If you do it a few times for a week or two and then stop, you wont notice anything. It's a long haul sort of thing. But the long term health benefits are well worth it.

So what I don't get is *why* people do this. But they do. Such is human nature, I guess.

Edited, Apr 1st 2019 3:46pm by gbaji
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#47 Apr 13 2019 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just gonna link this rather than going on a point by point. I've gotta upload my week's installment of my Pathfinder adventure journal for the people who read it and then I want to get back to leveling my Horde alt(I'm pretty sure Horde are the baddies in the faction war, btw). https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=95YRHyjw7Rs

Edited, Apr 13th 2019 10:26pm by Poldaran
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