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Britain votes to leave the EUFollow

#77 Jun 30 2016 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Form letters? My MP tracks down your home phone number and calls you.


I can't decide if I'm impressed or creeped out.


US congressional districts have ~700k people/rep, Canadian districts appear to have ~70/rep.
****, forgot our population was only about 21k


Edited, Jun 30th 2016 12:04pm by Uglysasquatch
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#78 Jun 30 2016 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Plus Angrymnk was talking about our senator, for which we have two guys covering thirteen million people. Probably get more hands-on service in Wyoming or something.


Thanks? You are absolutely correct about the information you provided. Most rational people are aware of this. This awareness does not automatically change the fact that electorate is not being represented - the thing discussed in previous posts. Hell, in fact it proves it...

Is it time to increase the number of senators and house reps? The population did grow somewhat since 1776.

I give you the benefit of the doubt that you just skimmed over the previous posts, but do try to keep up.

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#79 Jun 30 2016 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Thanks? You are absolutely correct about the information you provided. Most rational people are aware of this. This awareness does not automatically change the fact that electorate is not being represented - the thing discussed in previous posts. ****, in fact it proves it...

Oh, you know how many contacts Durbin got on that issue and how they broke down?

That's fascinating.

Actually, you likely would have gotten better response from your House rep since they would (a) have less people to deal with and (b) have more of your Polish diaspora population in their district and so your opinion would be more likely representative of the people in their district. Without you saying what the issue in question was, I'm going to guess it ranks somewhere between irrelevant to "nah" to most Illinois voters statewide.

Edited, Jun 30th 2016 6:35pm by Jophiel
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#80 Jun 30 2016 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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In more on topic news, I guess Boris Johnson decided he didn't want the job of PM after all.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#81 Jun 30 2016 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Thanks? You are absolutely correct about the information you provided. Most rational people are aware of this. This awareness does not automatically change the fact that electorate is not being represented - the thing discussed in previous posts. ****, in fact it proves it...

Oh, you know how many contacts Durbin got on that issue and how they broke down?

That's fascinating.

Actually, you likely would have gotten better response from your House rep since they would (a) have less people to deal with and (b) have more of your Polish diaspora population in their district and so your opinion would be more likely representative of the people in their district. Without you saying what the issue in question was, I'm going to guess it ranks somewhere between irrelevant to "nah" to most Illinois voters statewide.

Edited, Jun 30th 2016 6:35pm by Jophiel


Sigh, again I think you are missing a point, but w/e. The issue feels irrelevant given that the point was to illustrate how difficult it is for one person to influence their supposed representative... the point you so eloquently put yourself. And again, you are correct, I have absolutely no idea of the political cost benefit calculus used by Durbin. All I know is he sent an odd open letter to newly elected Polish government ( which happens to have an overwhelming support of the Chicago Pollacks.. especially among the old tards that vote ) seemingly in a response to a fringe group letter. I assumed that if he is responding to some a fringe group that is a minute portion of Polish electorate of Chicagoland, it could reasonably be assumed that he would respond more favorably to a greater slice of that electorate.

Then again, neither D nor HRC likes new Polish government anyway so there is that; I guess it is only surprise that they needed an excuse of a letter..

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#82 Jun 30 2016 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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angrymnk wrote:
The issue feels irrelevant given that the point was to illustrate how difficult it is for one person to influence their supposed representative...


That's the way it should be though, right? In a republic, the elected representative is supposed to weigh the opinions and desires of all of his constituents when making decisions. It's supposed to be difficult for "one person" to influence their representative, because that one person is just one out of tens or hundreds of thousands of other constituents, each of which desire their representative to represent "them" when making decisions. So yeah... working as intended.
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#83 Jun 30 2016 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
The issue feels irrelevant given that the point was to illustrate how difficult it is for one person to influence their supposed representative...


That's the way it should be though, right? In a republic, the elected representative is supposed to weigh the opinions and desires of all of his constituents when making decisions. It's supposed to be difficult for "one person" to influence their representative, because that one person is just one out of tens or hundreds of thousands of other constituents, each of which desire their representative to represent "them" when making decisions. So yeah... working as intended.


It is not a bad argument. And you are not wrong either. The basic idea of the republic is sound. People are idiots. Worse, people are basically like children. You cannot have them running around doing whatever they want. They are children after all. They do not know any better. You have to protect them from the stupid decision they may make. Heavens forfend they decide to, say, leave EU. Children I tell you.

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#84 Jun 30 2016 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
how difficult it is for one person to influence their supposed representative... the point you so eloquently put yourself.

Not to agree with Gbaji but, yeah, that's the point.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#85 Jul 01 2016 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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I grew up meeting my senators and congressmen in person and they knew my parents voted and that they could lose their vote if they made stupid mistakes. Like lying to my mother and sending a stupid bill in it's first draft to a committee I was a student representative on. I called a reporter for a major news paper I babysat for and after the article made the evening paper, they also posted an editorial against the law The state delegate's career tanked after that.

While I am not politically active as I was as a teen, I do let my congressmen and senators know how I feel about issues and always let them know I vote every election. Being a squeaky wheel does get their attention.

I'll admit that being known as the daughter of a very political family does help at times.
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#86 Jul 01 2016 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
The issue feels irrelevant given that the point was to illustrate how difficult it is for one person to influence their supposed representative...


That's the way it should be though, right? In a republic, the elected representative is supposed to weigh the opinions and desires of all of his constituents when making decisions. It's supposed to be difficult for "one person" to influence their representative, because that one person is just one out of tens or hundreds of thousands of other constituents, each of which desire their representative to represent "them" when making decisions. So yeah... working as intended.


Not so with the Clinton crime family campaign apparatus. Just make a sizable donation and you get mining contracts, license to sell uranium, you get to go on a pedophile's airplane to take trips with little girls for the purpose of having 5ex with them on a swanky Caribbean island, or get lucrative labor concessions for giving tips on how to parley $1,000 in $100,000 in the cattle futures market.

It's simple, really. Just give a hefty sum of money to the slush fund known as the Clinton Foundation and <Presto!> all sorts of influence happens on your behalf!


Edited, Jul 1st 2016 11:46pm by Totem
#87 Jul 02 2016 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Also known as the NRA strategy.
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#88 Jul 03 2016 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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The other shoe is getting ready to drop. Italy has E360 billion in nonperforming loans and the government is seriously thinking of confiscating citizen's savings accounts (as a "bail-in" vs an EU bail-out), which could cause a run on the banks, accelerating the crisis. Another possible option? Confiscating citizen's pensions.

All of this is the end result of sloppy financial policies, but is now set in stone since the EU does not allow for governments to adjust their currency against what Brussels has set as the standard. It gives the Italian government no room to move, thus giving rise to a populist proposal for an EU exit. It's up to 46% in recent polls.
#89 Jul 03 2016 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Here's a good article on cosmopolitanism and how it has blinded its' proponents to why the vote ended up as it did.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-cosmopolitanism.html?_r=2

Ross Douthat
NOW that populist rebellions are taking Britain out of the European Union and the Republican Party out of contention for the presidency, perhaps we should speak no more of left and right, liberals and conservatives. From now on the great political battles will be fought between nationalists and internationalists, nativists and globalists. From now on the loyalties that matter will be narrowly tribal — Make America Great Again, this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England — or multicultural and cosmopolitan.

Well, maybe. But describing the division this way has one great flaw. It gives the elite side of the debate (the side that does most of the describing) too much credit for being truly cosmopolitan.

Genuine cosmopolitanism is a rare thing. It requires comfort with real difference, with forms of life that are truly exotic relative to one’s own. It takes its cue from a Roman playwright’s line that “nothing human is alien to me,” and goes outward ready to be transformed by what it finds.

The people who consider themselves “cosmopolitan” in today’s West, by contrast, are part of a meritocratic order that transforms difference into similarity, by plucking the best and brightest from everywhere and homogenizing them into the peculiar species that we call “global citizens.”

This species is racially diverse (within limits) and eager to assimilate the fun-seeming bits of foreign cultures — food, a touch of exotic spirituality. But no less than Brexit-voting Cornish villagers, our global citizens think and act as members of a tribe.

They have their own distinctive worldview (basically liberal Christianity without Christ), their own common educational experience, their own shared values and assumptions (social psychologists call these WEIRD — for Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic), and of course their own outgroups (evangelicals, Little Englanders) to fear, pity and despise. And like any tribal cohort they seek comfort and familiarity: From London to Paris to New York, each Western “global city” (like each “global university”) is increasingly interchangeable, so that wherever the citizen of the world travels he already feels at home.

Indeed elite tribalism is actively encouraged by the technologies of globalization, the ease of travel and communication. Distance and separation force encounter and immersion, which is why the age of empire made cosmopolitans as well as chauvinists — sometimes out of the same people. (There is more genuine cosmopolitanism in Rudyard Kipling and T. E. Lawrence and Richard Francis Burton than in a hundred Davos sessions.)

It is still possible to disappear into someone else’s culture, to leave the global-citizen bubble behind. But in my experience the people who do are exceptional or eccentric or natural outsiders to begin with — like a young writer I knew who had traveled Africa and Asia more or less on foot for years, not for a book but just because, or the daughter of evangelical missionaries who grew up in South Asia and lived in Washington, D.C., as a way station before moving her own family to the Middle East. They are not the people who ascend to power, who become the insiders against whom populists revolt.

In my own case — to speak as an insider for a moment — my cosmopolitanism probably peaked when I was about 11 years old, when I was simultaneously attending tongues-speaking Pentecostalist worship services, playing Little League in a working-class neighborhood, eating alongside aging hippies in macrobiotic restaurants on weekends, all the while attending a liberal Episcopalian parochial school. (It’s a long story.)

Whereas once I began attending a global university, living in global cities, working and traveling and socializing with my fellow global citizens, my experience of genuine cultural difference became far more superficial.

Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with this. Human beings seek community, and permanent openness is hard to sustain.

But it’s a problem that our tribe of self-styled cosmopolitans doesn’t see itself clearly as a tribe: because that means our leaders can’t see themselves the way the Brexiteers and Trumpistas and Marine Le Pen voters see them.

They can’t see that what feels diverse on the inside can still seem like an aristocracy to the excluded, who look at cities like London and see, as Peter Mandler wrote for Dissent after the Brexit vote, “a nearly hereditary professional caste of lawyers, journalists, publicists, and intellectuals, an increasingly hereditary caste of politicians, tight coteries of cultural movers-and-shakers richly sponsored by multinational corporations.”

They can’t see that paeans to multicultural openness can sound like self-serving cant coming from open-borders Londoners who love Afghan restaurants but would never live near an immigrant housing project, or American liberals who hail the end of whiteness while doing everything possible to keep their kids out of majority-minority schools.

They can’t see that their vision of history’s arc bending inexorably away from tribe and creed and nation-state looks to outsiders like something familiar from eras past: A powerful caste’s self-serving explanation for why it alone deserves to rule the world.
#90 Jul 04 2016 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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Totem's article wrote:
“a nearly hereditary professional caste of lawyers, journalists, publicists, and intellectuals, an increasingly hereditary caste of politicians, tight coteries of cultural movers-and-shakers richly sponsored by multinational corporations.”
Yep

Tomem's article wrote:
A powerful caste’s self-serving explanation for why it alone deserves to rule the world.
Double yep.


Trickle down working as intended.
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#91 Jul 07 2016 at 5:58 AM Rating: Default
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Totem wrote:
Palpitus1, I do not think that the EU engaging in economic harm against GB is likely for the simple reason that it would be cutting off its' own nose to spite its' face.


Hurting the UK is cutting off its nose to SAVE its face and the rest of the body. If the Maastricht Treaty etc. means anything.. If the UK doesn't suffer for leaving, then Denmark, Spain, France, etc. can just leave and suffer zero economic consequence, if their relationship with the EU remains the same (and if so, the EU would mean nothing and evaporate). The only leverage the EU has vis-a-vis punishment seems to resolve around trade/economy. Or I guess also some travelling workers. But UK etc. don't give a damn about them, so yeah, the leverage will be economic.

IF the UK actually files article 50 then yes, they should suffer. Isn't that why all UK "leave" politicians have laughably resigned? Happy to champion that as a hypothetical, but when it actually wins don't want to deal with the utter destruction of the UK, possibly including literal dis-union if Scotland and NI leave, after 1000+ years? These are the utter-most cowardly and worst British politicians and there might be statues made of them lasting centuries to denote this particular era.

Honestly. Sure, maybe UK regains its senses and moots this referendum and chooses instead to stay in the EU (and so sad on those politicians but they'd be doing good).

But if Brexit actually occurs, the EU must punish the UK. I think free trade on the Continent may be worth even more than the Brits. Even if not, keeping the paradigm is worth eschewing the UK. Even if net loss. UK never even accepted the Euro, and troubled other EU law with their recalicitrance. Fuck UK, is what I imagine many continentals are thinking. Who will still have their borsht and creme bulee and pigeon pie or whatever those people eat.
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