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Bernie is winning the nomination race and here's whyFollow

#527 May 11 2016 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Short list of general badness, in roughly this order.
First past the post
Single party axis
Geographic districting for national elections
Gerrymandering
Access purchase
Caucuses


Short list of Timelord's problems:
Zoophilia
Overconfidence
Dickish tendencies
Invasive snooping
Affluenza
Cowardice

Edited, May 11th 2016 5:50pm by Kavekkk
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#528 May 11 2016 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekkk wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Short list of general badness, in roughly this order.
First past the post
Single party axis
Geographic districting for national elections
Gerrymandering
Access purchase
Caucuses


Short list of Timelord's problems:
Zoophilia
Overconfidence
Dickish tendencies
Invasive snooping
Affluenza
Cowardice

Edited, May 11th 2016 5:50pm by Kavekkk


I have never even been to California.
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#529 May 12 2016 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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TLW is a furry?
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#530 May 12 2016 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know what "Geographic districting for national elections" means. Is that a fancy way of saying "electoral college" or something else?
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#531 May 12 2016 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't know what "Geographic districting for national elections" means. Is that a fancy way of saying "electoral college" or something else?


No, it means there is no reason to use state/county boundaries in a national election.
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#532 May 12 2016 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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I would guess for simplicity since the boundaries must exist for local voting. To your point, since the electoral college is based on those very said boundaries, you're essentially arguing against the electoral college and simply for a popular vote election.
#533 May 12 2016 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
No, it means there is no reason to use state/county boundaries in a national election.

Well, we don't use county boundaries (except administratively) and the reason for using state boundaries is of course the electoral college.

There's also an obvious benefit to breaking it up into smaller groups like counties if you have to do a recount.
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#534 May 12 2016 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Timelord just got schooled so hard he'll be learning things for years to come.
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#535 May 13 2016 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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#536 May 13 2016 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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No, I meant what I said. The electoral college is part of it but isn't the only part. Regional primaries and district representatives are others, for example.
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#537 May 13 2016 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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But District Reps aren't national offices, they're regional offices within the Federal (or state) government.

I guess I just fail to understand your issue but that's fine.
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#538 May 13 2016 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wait, why don't we like the electoral college now? Smiley: confused

I mean it's not perfect or anything, but at least it makes people pretend to care about parts of the country that aren't major metropolitan areas.
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#539 May 13 2016 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, lots of people don't like the EC so that's nothing weird. He has a larger point to it though that I'm not understanding.

Out of his list of badness though, caucuses are the one thing that could be easily changed by the parties without remaking the political system or passing difficult legislation.
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#540 May 13 2016 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Caucus always seemed like a rather shady/convoluted thing. Like a town hall kind of concept that works fine in a small town, but just gets convoluted when you're talking about representing millions of people with one.
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#541 May 13 2016 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Caucus always seemed like a rather shady/convoluted thing. Like a town hall kind of concept that works fine in a small town, but just gets convoluted when you're talking about representing millions of people with one.


I don't think it's about shady or nefarious in some way. I think that a caucus tends to favor those who are more time invested in their party and/or the political process in general, while primaries tend to favor the drive by voters. If you want your process more influenced by the flash in the pan of the moment, or the candidate with the better mass advertising, then you'll prefer primaries. If you want it to be more influenced by the folks who take the time to attend local party meetings, get involved in their local politics, etc, then you'll tend to prefer caucuses. I suppose it really depends on how you view the role of a party, and how that party should choose its representatives. Remember, this isn't a general election, so the concept that the public as a whole has some kind of "right" to influence the outcome is simply flawed.

Of course, there's also the cost issue, which is more often what affects this decision. To hold a state wide primary, with all the "official" election bits that entails, the state has to decide to spend money on that. And voters might not be so interested in their tax dollars going to pay for a political party's primary. If I'm one of the roughly 3/4ths of the voting eligible public who doesn't bother to vote in any party primary, I might not be so interested in paying for it. Never underestimate the laziness of most Americans when it comes to their politics.

Um... But the one bit I do find amusing is the disconnect between how these two systems are viewed depending on which party you are in. The GOP caucuses are viewed as a bastion of the establishment because they've tended to go heavily for folks like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich, and not for Trump. But the Dem caucuses are the opposite. That's where Sanders is doing well, and Clinton not as well. I think it's less about establishment versus outsider, and more about what the most grass roots activists in the party in each state are interested in. And on the Dem side, they don't like Clinton and Sanders appeals to them, while on the GOP side, they don't like Trump at all (and pretty much anyone else appeals to them for that reason). So it's not really a one size fits all issue. They are different processes, which will logically generate different results.

Edited, May 13th 2016 3:51pm by gbaji
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#542 May 13 2016 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Being involved in local politics isn't a requirement to caucus, just having extra free time on your hands is. That's why the Iowa caucuses get dominated by college students -- not because they're political superstars but because they don't have other shit to do during the required time block.

Edit: This is for standard caucuses. The CO caucus a month or two back was a different situation.

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But the one bit I do find amusing is the disconnect between how these two systems are viewed depending on which party you are in. The GOP caucuses are viewed as a bastion of the establishment because they've tended to go heavily for folks like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich, and not for Trump. But the Dem caucuses are the opposite. That's where Sanders is doing well, and Clinton not as well. I think it's less about establishment versus outsider, and more about what the most grass roots activists in the party in each state are interested in.

Caucuses were a poor way of doing things in 2008 when Obama used them to springboard his delegate lead.

Edited, May 13th 2016 6:02pm by Jophiel
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#543 May 13 2016 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Being involved in local politics isn't a requirement to caucus, just having extra free time on your hands is. That's why the Iowa caucuses get dominated by college students -- not because they're political superstars but because they don't have other shit to do during the required time block.


Eh. I think occasionally, that happens. but mostly it's the same group of retirees you see gathering at city council meetings, and town hall meetings, and PTA meetings (even though they don't have kids in the school and haven't for decades), and taking your ballot at the polling place on election day.

College kids also tend to be unwilling to spend more than an hour or two doing anything before they get bored and move on. It's hard enough to get them to bother to wait in line just to vote, much less hang out for 4-5 hours. But yeah, I suppose we could drop the Paulites and SanderBros in that list if you want.

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But the one bit I do find amusing is the disconnect between how these two systems are viewed depending on which party you are in. The GOP caucuses are viewed as a bastion of the establishment because they've tended to go heavily for folks like Cruz/Rubio/Kasich, and not for Trump. But the Dem caucuses are the opposite. That's where Sanders is doing well, and Clinton not as well. I think it's less about establishment versus outsider, and more about what the most grass roots activists in the party in each state are interested in.

Caucuses were a poor way of doing things in 2008 when Obama used them to springboard his delegate lead.


Exactly. Er... Or not. Er... Uh... what position am I supposed to have this time around based on who's benefited this time around? Yeah. That's kinda the point. People tend to support or oppose a given method of selecting <whatever> based not on whether said method is objectively better, or more fair, or whatever, but based on whether it produced results they agree with. Which I kinda see as "working as intended". At the end of the day, as long as each state's rules and methodology are clearly available for all sides, any method they use is "fair". And frankly, I kinda like that they vary from one state to the other. If for no other reason than it does give us some insight into why one candidate might do better under one method versus another. If all states used the exact same process, the same candidate type bias would be present based on the method chosen. We would just have a harder time seeing it.

So... Not really a problem IMO.
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#544 May 13 2016 at 8:07 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Exactly. Er... Or not. Er... Uh... what position am I supposed to have this time around based on who's benefited this time around? Yeah. That's kinda the point. People tend to support or oppose a given method of selecting <whatever> based not on whether said method is objectively better, or more fair, or whatever, but based on whether it produced results they agree with.
So, while this is true (I don't recall Sanders fans complaining about closed primaries in 2008), some things are just bad. Caucuses are one of them.
#545 May 13 2016 at 8:10 PM Rating: Default
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/or/oregon_democratic_presidential_primary-5809.html wrote:
Clinton +15 in Oregon
I'll believe it when I see it. If She takes both Kentucky and Oregon, going into Super Sayain Tuesday, that would be a major blow. That's especially true given that she'll probably win Puerto Rico.
#546 May 13 2016 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Exactly. Er... Or not. Er... Uh... what position am I supposed to have this time around based on who's benefited this time around? Yeah. That's kinda the point. People tend to support or oppose a given method of selecting <whatever> based not on whether said method is objectively better, or more fair, or whatever, but based on whether it produced results they agree with.
So, while this is true (I don't recall Sanders fans complaining about closed primaries in 2008), some things are just bad. Caucuses are one of them.


Interesting. Was this a position you held (and expressed!) in say 2008? Just checking.
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#547 May 13 2016 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Interesting. Was this a position you held (and expressed!) in say 2008? Just checking.
I didn't even know what a caucus was in 2008, so I will say no. I agree with your first comment, but not everything is "subjective". There are some objectively bad practices, and a caucus is one of them.
#548 May 13 2016 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Eh. I think occasionally, that happens. but mostly it's the same group of retirees you see gathering at city council meetings, and town hall meetings, and PTA meetings (even though they don't have kids in the school and haven't for decades), and taking your ballot at the polling place on election day.

Since neither college students nor retirees make up the bulk of a party, a system that disproportionately favors them over other voters isn't a great one. Point being that the inability to hang out at a caucus location for three hours isn't a sign that you don't care about the party, it's just a sign that you have other commitments. You saw this in Vegas where people were in a snit that casino workers were getting time off to caucus -- well, it's either that or they don't vote through no fault of their own. Trying to feed your family or pay rent isn't a sign that you're not a Real Party Believer. On the other hand, a primary running from 6am-7pm allows most people to get in and cast a ballot. I'm sure you can find edge cases where someone was just unable to make it but it's a hell of a lot more accessible than a caucus.

Although Nevada shows another reason to get rid of the caucus system -- caucuses are often very poorly run as we saw in Iowa, in Maine, in Nevada and in Colorado. Hell, just this cycle it seems likely that CO will ditch their caucus system due to complaints and Nevada will very possibly lose their early voting state status because their caucuses are so poorly run.
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At the end of the day, as long as each state's rules and methodology are clearly available for all sides, any method they use is "fair".

I didn't say it was unfair, I said that it was poor.
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And frankly, I kinda like that they vary from one state to the other. If for no other reason than it does give us some insight into why one candidate might do better under one method versus another.

Given that, come November, they all go onto a standard ballot... who cares? "Hey, did you know that Candidate Smith does better when you restrict most of his supporters to college students and the elderly? Isn't that just fascinating?"
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#549 May 14 2016 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sure you can find edge cases where someone was just unable to make it but it's a hell of a lot more accessible than a caucus.


And absentee ballots cover just about all the edge cases.
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#550 May 14 2016 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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Another objectively bad practice, "voice votes".
#551 May 16 2016 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Nevada will very possibly lose their early voting state status because their caucuses are so poorly run.
But Nevada showed us just how much real conservatives supported Trump.
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